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Game balance and immunities
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How to balance spellcasters?
Keep immunities and high resistances.
40%
 40%  [ 10 ]
Reduce area of effect spells damage and increase their cost.
40%
 40%  [ 10 ]
Link spell damage calculations to player weapon damage so casters are balanced same way as melee
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Reduce mana shield and blood pact from 100% so casters need to gear for defense
16%
 16%  [ 4 ]
Delete sorceror and necromancer
4%
 4%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 25

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ivenbach



Joined: 29 Dec 2016
Posts: 2

PostPosted: 29 Dec, 2016 10:25    Post subject:

Level requirements for spells seems best idea.
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radicool



Joined: 28 Feb 2014
Posts: 153

PostPosted: 05 Feb, 2017 0:53    Post subject:

Reducing AOE damage sounds interesting. Rather than simply reducing AOE damage, what about making it so the first enemy hit by lightning takes full damage, and each enemy thereafter takes 10% less damage? (minimum 30% or something)

Perhaps this effect is not necessary. Simply reducing AOE damage could encourage players to swap skills for single boss enemies. I du
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sergio_cannabis



Joined: 19 Jan 2014
Posts: 238

PostPosted: 05 Feb, 2017 14:34    Post subject:

i would have liked another option in the poll.

how about high resistance of enemies. like 99%? like this the sorcerer would still be able to kill the enemy. it's annoying to just having to skip enemies if they are immune to all elements.
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Doubtful



Joined: 05 Apr 2014
Posts: 40

PostPosted: 08 Feb, 2017 21:44    Post subject:

@Sergio
Thats what i am thinking.
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Wingard



Joined: 10 Apr 2014
Posts: 209

PostPosted: 08 Feb, 2017 21:58    Post subject:

I like the high resistance idea as well. It makes both sense and sorceror's life in late game less of a pain.
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sarcrofs



Joined: 19 Nov 2016
Posts: 80

PostPosted: 04 Mar, 2017 21:12    Post subject:

@sergio

yep, and more lvl req and less magic lvl for read books too.
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radicool



Joined: 28 Feb 2014
Posts: 153

PostPosted: 08 Mar, 2017 6:55    Post subject:

Quote:
how about high resistance of enemies. like 99%? like this the sorcerer would still be able to kill the enemy. it's annoying to just having to skip enemies if they are immune to all elements.


I don't understand how this is a good idea. Changing the situation from:

"I skip monsters with immunities"

to:

"I skip monsters with high resistances because it takes me forever to kill them"

doesn't really help the situation. Add a Behemoth affix to a highly resistant enemy and you've got yourself an unbeatable unit. Lowering AOE damage or tying weapon damage to spells seems like the only way this may get fixed. I would prefer lowering AOE damage, because weapon damage sounds like Diablo 3. I didn't like how item affixes turned out in D3.

Adding level requirements to books sounds interesting, it could work.
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sarcrofs



Joined: 19 Nov 2016
Posts: 80

PostPosted: 09 Mar, 2017 16:43    Post subject:

99% for immunities is good, IMO 100% is best for the what need for a monster become immune, with some -% you can deal good damage, think about a single staff with -20%, now from immune to receive 20% of damage, what is good. In some weeks I will post a great opinion to how balance the mod.
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radicool



Joined: 28 Feb 2014
Posts: 153

PostPosted: 09 Mar, 2017 22:25    Post subject:

Quote:
99% for immunities is good, IMO 100% is best for the what need for a monster become immune, with some -% you can deal good damage, think about a single staff with -20%, now from immune to receive 20% of damage, what is good. In some weeks I will post a great opinion to how balance the mod.


I could be wrong but I thought magic pen could allow you to damage immunities? Coud anybody confirm that immunities are 100%, or are they higher than this to counteract penetration items? I thought I could already damage immunes by stacking penetration?

I'll also mention that these penetration items are hard to come by. My best penetration item is like 13%. I still think 87% resistance is a little harsh when they also have a behemoth affix. [/quote]
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sarcrofs



Joined: 19 Nov 2016
Posts: 80

PostPosted: 10 Mar, 2017 5:05    Post subject:

Works, this is why the Elemental Drain of Sorcerer works.

Btw, 100% instead 125% will be more easy to deal damage and to calculate Razz

But 100% is only viable if changes the spellbooks (+lvl requisite to learn based in level will be learned, and lower magic/vitality requisites) and one think none write about (I dont see at least) is to change the sinergy of skill classes, Sorcerer is full based in Magic, if this is changed to be based in Magic and Level will be balanced. A twinked Sorcerer is godlike.

Btw I am writing a HUGE list of changes what can balance very well the game, but is pure "IMO", I will try to lvlup some classes before posting to be more accuracy, but since much classes don't change much from Belzebub I can feel confortable to post everytime since complete.
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radicool



Joined: 28 Feb 2014
Posts: 153

PostPosted: 13 Mar, 2017 3:06    Post subject:

If immunes are already 100% and we can damage them with a little bit of penetration, what good will reducing their resistances by 1% do for us?

If we assume resistances can go higher 100%, particularly in higher difficulties, setting a flat line 99% resistance will likely interrupt the difficulty curve. I don't think relying immunities is a good way to balance things.

Putting balance issues aside fro a moment, I'll comment on a few side effects of relying on excessive immunities:

1.) Even if you decide to use immunities to balance the game, the concept is lame. Its not logical making a fire boss immune to lightning or ice. The character or demeanor of a monster is a little spoiled by nonsensical immunities.

2.) Its interesting to throw around a Sorc play style by forcing him to use different elemenatal damage to different enemies. If special monsters are immune to all types, then that mechanic is no longer possible and he will just use his strongest spell because elemental damage is irrelevant. Immunities should not be used too often an only when appropriate to promote this mechanic.

3.) The affixes of an enemy are listed underneath his HP bar. Flooding this field up with Immune to Ice Immune to Lightning, Immune to Fire, is just cluttering up the system and making it harder to work out the real affixes that matter to the player.
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sarcrofs



Joined: 19 Nov 2016
Posts: 80

PostPosted: 13 Mar, 2017 23:00    Post subject:

I never say to put 100% and stay full immunities monsters lol.

If the mob have this 3 immunities use Magic ?! Mind mace are physical in Tchernobog, so you can use this vs 4 immunities.

3 immunities are enough, since have 4 elements.

100% = imune = 0 damage
99% = receive 1% of your damage

and it go...

not only throw to use other elements, but throw to use single target and multi target spells too, just easy to make this making lvl req to read books and lower magic level, put Sorcerer kit to be based in Magic AND level, not just Magic and putting the spellbook/spell list spells to deal damage based in Magic, Character Level and Spell Level instead only "spell level".

I suggest this for all classes, to be more based in: Main attribute, clvl and slvl (spell level).

I will lvlup all characters to some good lvls to have sense of balancing and will post, I have a LOT of ideas to balance this mod in a easy way, but need to play every character to test if I am right. But what I make above is one of the suggestions.
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riesa



Joined: 21 Feb 2014
Posts: 404

PostPosted: 16 Mar, 2017 2:41    Post subject:

Good to know, BL, that you're still alive (; I've made some joke on a Noktis fp, but i didn't knew that you really came back to Tchernobog coding (; I've left forums right after you left it so... Maybe i'll come back ;P

Back to the topic. I can sincerelly say, i didn't played Tchernobog yet. After Belzebub experience i think that nothin should be changed in res/immu thing because... Yes, it can be easy at the beggining, but in late hell/mid torment (if you are good enough to go to the torment) it's impassable. At least you hit 'New Game' for few hours to get good set of mobs. For me, it balance from last Bel patch would be same i final Tchernobog then yes - casters are gonna make 'taxi' for melee, but than melee will carry (or bowazon xP).
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sarcrofs



Joined: 19 Nov 2016
Posts: 80

PostPosted: 16 Mar, 2017 4:40    Post subject:

Every game need one think: make the playetr have fun, sorc in torment is bad and boring, need balance all classes and this can be made.
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neversun



Joined: 19 Feb 2017
Posts: 20

PostPosted: 16 Mar, 2017 12:53    Post subject:

I believe that dealing with immunities should stimulate more skillful play, but not just routine complication of the game.

I suggest the following options:
1. Do not touch monsters immunities/resistances. Remove completely cooldown from Elemental Drain, but as a drawback during its effect add heavy Manaburn to all monsters’ attacks. At least this will stimulate Sorcs to play carefully and avoid unnecessary damage at any cost.

2. Do not touch monsters immunities/resistances. Move Elemental Drain from Skills into Page 5 Spells, so they will cost mana and some amount of heath simultaneously. So Sorcs will have a chance to break some % of resistances but at the cost of extra risk.

3. Do not touch monsters immunities/resistances. Very interesting option might be introduction of some “extra financial cost” for redusing resistances. It can be something like Soulshots /Spiritshots in Lineage II. They should be kept in the inventory and will be consumed at every spell casting and they will add removal of some % of monsters’ resistances. And they will be dropped on death together with the gold. This will again stimulate careful play.

4. Do not touch monsters immunities/resistances. Introduce one separate class of unique items (e.g. charms) which supposed to be in the inventory and it will remove some % of monsters resistances. But spells will start to cost money (e.g. 100 gold per every cast). So Sorcs shall always carry some gold in the inventory to fuel the effect.

5. Do not touch monsters immunities/resistances. Introduce very unique jewels of different types which will add extra “-% monster resistances” when socketed it into staffs (crafting procedure).

6. Make monsters’ resistances’ cap 100%. If 100% - it’s immune. If less – possible to damage. Very simple and fair.
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